Written by Kenn Sava. Photographs by Harry Gruyaert.

Harry Gruyaert is a mystery to me.

I wonder…HOW does he get such miraculous, beautifully atmospheric Photographs, over and over, again? It doesn’t matter what time of day,

or night it is.

What the weather is,

or even what’s going on.

And, he’s been doing it for going on 50 years now.

His Photographs will make you stop and wonder- What’s going on here?

Or, marvel at the almost magical combination of elements coming together in a split second of time,

any time,

any where.

But, the biggest mystery of all, for me, is WHY is he still so relatively little known in the USA?

His name is heard nowhere nearly as often as his fellow contemporary Masters of color Photography- William Eggleston, Saul Leiter, Stephen Shore, and the rest. As I write this, there are only TWO books of his work in print here (see BookMarks at the end). Yet, I find, his work has a richness and subtlety, those gorgeous colors he’s legendary for, all in the service of a mystery, like an untitled still from a movie (sorry, Cindy), that brings me back to have another look, again and again. His work can stand right alongside that of his peers, and it will hold its own alongside any of them. Even beyond contemporary Photography, Harry Gruyaert’s work, also, speaks to the lover of Painting in me. His is that rarest of work that touches some of the same nerves that Edward Hopper is, perhaps, most renowned for- the insular loneliness that defines modern life.

Born in Antwerp, Belgium in 1941, he joined Magnum Photos in 1981, as admittedly, and somewhat controversially, the first and only, non-PhotoJournalist in the legendary group. 37 years later, he’s still a member, and is it only a coincidence that the current roster may be the most diverse in its 71 year history? Still going strong, 2018 is turning out to be a big year for Harry. First, the Harry Gruyaert – Retrospective at FOMU Foto Museum in Antwerp, Belgium, from March 9th to June 9th, 2018, while the feature length documentary, Harry Gruyaert Photographer, premiered this summer. Meanwhile, this past Saturday, September 8th, saw the opening of his new show at Antwerp’s renowned Gallery Fifty One. The show is titled Roots, and features work Mr. Gruyaert created in his native Belgium, where his “roots” are.

I’m thrilled to say I had the privilege of speaking with Mr. Gruyaert in France after he just returned home from attending the opening of Roots, and in a far ranging interview, I was fortunate to ask him every question I could think of that I have yet to see asked of him thus far. What follows is not a blow by blow biography. It’s meant to fill in the gaps in what’s been written about Harry Gruyaert thus far. And so, it’s meant to intrigue, to inspire you to delve further into his long and rich career. I quickly discovered that he is not one to mince words. Hold on to your seats, and prepare to meet a living legend, who’s bursting with passion in his mid-70s. Ladies and gentlemen, my conversation with Harry Gruyaert on September 11th, 2018…

Before I could get a word out, he said…

Harry Gruyaert- I liked what you did on Saul Leiter, so…

Kenn Sava- Oh, you did? Thank you very much. It’s interesting…I notice there’s a couple of things you seem to have in common with Saul. Early on, his father, also, was adamantly against his becoming a Photographer, and eventually disinherited him. He was also really loved Pierre Bonnard, as I mentioned. I note that you are as well. Saul who was known for his color work, did most of his intimate work in black & white, as you have.

Pierre Bonnard is not somebody who comes up all that often, I’ve had him come up twice with such great Photographers recently. What is it about Bonnard that particularly speaks to you?

HG- It’s extremely sensual, you know. It’s amazing. His cropping is really amazing. I really like so much the feeling he has towards his life, and his wife. It’s quite amazing.

A funny thing about Saul Leiter. When I arrived in Paris in April, 1962, I went to Elle Magazine, which is a fashion magazine, and I showed my work to the art director, Peter Knapp, and he said, “Oh, you are the little Saul Leiter. “ I had no idea who Saul Leiter was. It took me 40 years to realize who was Saul Leiter, and strangely enough in the last Paris Photo, my work was hanging next to his in the booth of Gallery Fifty One, run by Roger Szmulewicz, and  believe it or not, who walks by as I was standing in the booth ? Peter Knapp ! It’s amazing. So I asked him, “Why did you tell me that all those years ago?” He said, “It’s because of the way you work with color, obviously.” I really find it exciting  when things like that happen. 

KS- So, his work had no influence on you. You weren’t aware of it.

HG- No. No. I found out much later when his first Steidl book came out and when I saw his show at the Foundation Cartier-Bresson in Paris, which was only a couple of years ago.

KS- This has been a big year for you with the FOMU Retrospective, the Documentary Harry Gruyaert Photographer, and now the Gallery Fifty One show, Roots, I wanted to congratulate you on all of that.

HG- Thank you. 

KS- I came across your work in the Magnum Square Print sale and realized I hadn’t done a deep dive into your career. Part of the reason is there aren’t a lot of books of your work in print here. The Retrospective, with the red cover, and East/West being two. It seems that you’re slowly reissuing your books, right?

HG- Sure. You know I accumulated so much work. And the good thing about making books now, is that you have much more control than before. The quality of printing is much better and my new books look better than the ones I published before.

KS- East/West is a fascinating book in that regard. I’m interested in why you chose to group the two books together. I know you’ve said many times you’re not a journalist, but looking at this work now from so many years later, it almost has a journalistic feel to it- A commentary about the materialism in America and the fall of the USSR at the time you were taking the pictures. Was that any part of the intention in issuing them together now in a slipcase? 

HG- Yes, that was part of the idea of publishing these two series of pictures together. Don’t forget, I’m a documentary Photographer, and in that sense I feel quite close to somebody like Cartier Bresson whose work is always about a particular place at a particular time. We have both travelled a lot and taken pictures in many different countries and share that same openness to different world and different cultures. Though I am a great admirer of american photographers, I sometimes feel that the work they have done in the states is more interesting than their work in other countries. I don’t know why that is. 

KS- You were involved with Henri Cartier-Bresson and I read the story of him asking you to color his prints. For everyone who wasn’t able to know him, what would you like them to know about him? Is there any one thing that particularly stands out?

HG- (Laughs)…Oh boy. I was very lucky to have known him. He was very provocative. He was full of energy. Very provocative, and at the same time, he wanted to be a zen buddhist. (Laughs) Very interesting person. Complex. It’s such a lesson that he gave up Photography and went back to his old passion, Painting and Drawing, when he felt he had nothing more to say through photography. It was not on the level of what he did before, but it’s such a lesson. Then, he’d come and ask you, “What do you think of my Painting or Drawing?” He started all over again, questionning himself instead of relying on his reputation.

KS- That’s quite a compliment to you that he’d ask you to Paint his prints. 

HG- It all started when he came to see my first show about Morocco at the Delpire Galerie in Paris. My C. prints were far from perfect and he started making comments. He took bits of paper or little objects and put them on my prints to explain to me what he meant.Amazing. Then he sent me his book about Andre Lhote, who was his teacher in Painting and  called me up two weeks later, and said «  I have a suggestion to make.I will send a couple of my prints and I will send you a big box of pastels and you can try and color them.” I said, “Henri, it’s nice to think about it, but I’m not a Painter. I can’t even make a drawing.”

He had a problem with color photography. He felt it was only used for commercial reasons and was not really interested. And I think he really didn’t like the fact that many Magnum Photographers moved to color because that’s what magazines were asking for when they were better doing black & white. But some became very good magazine photographers and were very successful. 

KS- Was there a single moment or an event that got you first interested in Photography?

HG-Different things…I wanted to travel. I went to an exhibition in ’58 at the World’s Fair in Brussels. I saw the different pavilions : America, Russia, Japan, India… I was looking at the globe which I had at home. And I thought, I want to go to all these places. And I was also interested in fashion. I loved  Fashion magazines which were much better at the time, like Harper’s Bazar and Vogue, and photographers like Avedon and Irving Penn. And there were all these beautiful girls…

KS- So, it came out of your desire to travel.

HG- To travel, to discover things…I was always interested in Paintings. I always went to Museums. 

I never even thought about doing anything else. I was Director of Photography for a couple of television Film. I had a big admiration for the directors of photography who worked with  Italians film directors like Antonioni, I through they were really fantastic. I could have made a profession out of that, but I wanted to do my own stuff, my own Films and it meant working with a large crew of people and you needed a lot of money. The good thing about photography is that you can work on your own. If the digital small cameras of the quality we have now had existed at the time, things might have been different.

KS- When I look at your work I see elements of both- they seem like stills from a movie but then when it comes to printing, it’s some of the same techniques that come to bear that Painters would use, so you’ve almost married the two. Do you see it that way at all?

HG- Yeah, sure. The funny thing is that the directors I know in Paris, I’m friendly with some of them, have told me they’ve been inspired by some of my photographs…So it’s wonderful that it works both ways. 

KS- I’ve read a couple of your interviews over time talking about Edward Hopper. I think in one interview you said you didn’t really look at his work early on, but you can kind of see what people say when they talk about the similarities in the loneliness and isolation in your work. Since it didn’t come from Hopper, that sense that is in some of your work, where do you think that came from? Those isolated figures, that sense of loneliness and isolation that occurs in your work? 

HG- I don’t really know. It’s not the person that interests me most. It’s the person in its environment. To me, all the elements are important. I don’t have any particular intention. It’s just what I see.

I think humans have such a great idea about ourselves but nature is so much more powerful.

Talking about loneliness in the city…A funny thing that came up. Do you know (Georges) Simenon, the Belgian Writer of detective stories ? Inspector Maigret is the name of the detective. They translated them into english and they had trouble finding covers for them. Peter Galassi said to them, “Look at Harry’s work. I think you can find something there.” So, the guy from the publishing company sent me some lay-outs and I didn’t think it could work because the cover is vertical and 90% of my work is horizontal. But, the way he cropped it, it was really quite interesting and I asked him to print the full frame image on the back cover. 

Then, Penguin Books in London picked it up. Believe it or not, we’ve done 65 covers.

KS- You’ve done 65 covers for them?

HG- Yes. Just from my archive. My archives are not only Magnum, only a small percentage is Magnum. So, she comes to Paris and looks through mainly my old work. When I did my show at FOMU at Antwerp, there was a big wall with all the covers of the books and small pictures of the full frame.

The strange thing is Simenon is Belgian. He’s from Liege. I’m from Antwerp. I met his son and he showed me some Photographs that Simenon did himself, and you find this kind of thing of a small figure in an urban landscape. With a certain lonelieness. Which you find often in my work. It’s really quite funny.

KS- You’ve spoken about a number of the places you’ve worked- Moscow, Belgium, California & the American West. How do you feel about New York?

HG- Extremely exciting. I’ve done lots of work in New York. The first time I came to New York was in ’68. I was friends with people like Gordon Matta-Clark. All those Artists were important to me, in terms of the energy, in terms of what they were doing. 

Pop Art taught me to look at a certain banality with interest, a visual interest and a certain sense of humor.That changed the nature of the work I was doing in Belgium at the time.  In the beginning it was only in black & white. For two years, I didn’t see any color there. But Pop Art taught me to look at things in a different way and then I started to work in color.

So for two years there I only shot black & white.

KS- I don’t really consider Robert Rauschenberg a Pop Artist but he was obviously very important at that time, and since. Has he had any influence on you at all?

HG- Oh, I love his work. I mean the personality… the openness, trying other things. There’s more sensuality in Rauschenberg. It’s more fun as well. 

KS- In looking at someone like Robert Rauschenberg, and there’s others, too, who were Painters, but also were Photographers, it seems to me that their Photography doesn’t get any attention at all. Have you seen Rauschenberg’s Photography, and if so, what do you think of it?

HG- Oh, sure. It’s interesting. Sometimes it takes time to discover things. So many Photographers are being discovered…look at Saul Leiter.

KS- Speaking of that…another Photographer who is also a Painter, is William Eggleston. You were able to see the legendary 1976 show at MoMA, Photographs by William Eggleston, and you spoke about being impressed with his dye-transfer prints. I’m wondering- What did you think of his work when you first saw it?

HG- It was amazing to see that, especially the quality of the printing. The first book is one of his best and one of my favorites. 

KS- So you think William Eggleston’s Guide would be among his best work?

HG- Sure. Yes. Definitely. There are other good things too. But the problem now is that publishers want to publish too many books. Some are good, some are not so good. Banality can be interesting, but sometimes, it’s just banal!

KS- In the Gallery Fifty One show you have 41 works in black & white and 19 works in color, though they are large. I notice there seems to be more surrealism in the black & white works, where it’s more subtle in the color work. Does that seem to be the case for you?

HG- Black and white and color are two different approaches. I took pictures of my daughters in black & white because I felt I got closer to them. Shooting in black and white I feel less preoccupied by the way people dress, the background or things that could distract me. I concentrate on the human quality of the person. Color is more complex. With color, the color really has to be the main thing…the most important thing…

KS- It’s said that Roots was, at one point, basically a “farewell” to Beligum, after your difficulties with your father…

HG- That was not so much the problem as the lack of a cultural environment.

KS- But, it seems that you’ve made peace with Belgium. Have you done work in Belgium since Roots? 

HG- I do all the time. At the show I gave Roger (Gallery Fifty One’s Director) about 15 prints I did very recently, to show whoever’s interested that things change. Nothing stays the same. The colors are different now. The mentality’s different. Belgium is more like the rest of Europe, I guess…the same clothing…the same advertisements. It’s actually much more colorful, but in a more capitalistic driven way. It’s more fashionable somehow, and It’s more alike. Before, in Holland and Belgium, which are very near to each other, things were very different in the color aspect and all that. And now, things have become much more the same, like in the States.

KS- So you were saying that some of the American Photographers influenced you more than the Europeans. Who were those American Photographers who influenced you?

HG- (Lee) Friedlander, definitely. (Irving) Penn, (Richard) Avedon. Helen Levitt is wonderful, sure, Bruce Davidson and others…

When I look at Stephen Shore’s work, I have the feeling that I am traveling with him. It’s really important in Photography to get to the person and have the feeling of being with him. That’s really important. Stephen Shore, but other Photographers as well. It’s physical. It’s the experience they have that appeals to me. It’s a physical thing. That’s why I don’t care much for conceptual work. It comes from the brain. For me, it has to come more from the stomach. It’s physical. It’s experience, which someone has at a given time, and through the experience I get contact with the person who did it.

To me, Art is…When I look at Rembrandt, I’m with Rembrandt. When I look at Bonnard, I’m with Bonnard. When I look at conceptual work, I’m with the brain of somebody. If they have to write a lot of stuff before we’re able to understand what it’s all about, I’m not interested in the exhibition. I have to first look at the work and it should mean something. It has to appeal to me visually. 

KS- Have there been any Directors or Painters that have spoken to you more recently?  Anyone that’s come along since Antonioni, Magritte? Anything that’s more contemporary? Anything that you’ve really been impressed with?

HG- Recently? I’m a movie fan. I go to movies all the time. In the past I went to the cinema every day. I learned more from movies than anywhere else…movies and paintings…

About Antonioni. What’s really interesting…In 2009, 10 Magnum Photographers had a show at the Cinematheque Francaise in Paris, exploring  the relationship between still Photography and Film. My part was to show how much I was inspired by Film, and mainly, by Antonioni. So, I did a projection, which lasts about 25 minutes, with extracts of his movies – l’Avventura, The Eclipse and the Red Desert –  and some of my Photographs next to them.

There are three Antonioni Films I was limited to¹. So, I was able to use certain things. …. But, when they saw the thing produced, the review were very happy about it.

KS- I would love to see that. You have a new book, Rivages about to come out, (to be released in the USA as Edges later this year). I’ve read that you’ve been enjoying using today’s technology to make better prints. Are you also involved with the selecting of the images for the books and the way they are sequenced, or does somebody else do that?

HG- Completely. It’s team work. I’m the first person, obviously. I’ve been working with the same people the past 4 or 5 books. It’s like teamwork. 

The English edition of Rivages (Edges) is coming out at the end of September. The French edition is earlier. I’m very happy with them. The printing and everything. 

KS- So, you’re selecting the images for the books. 

HG- Sure. There’s some discussions, obviously…yeah, teamwork.

KS- Are you working on another version of Morocco?

HG- No plans for the moment, but everything is sold out. 

I want to do a book about street photography in the different cities I’ve been to. You know like New York, Brussels, or whatever And also a book on India and Egypt, a book about my industrial work, about airport, about my daughters… So many things… I also want to redo It’s not about cars, which was first published with  Roger Smulewicz of Gallery 51², but in a larger and more complete version. 

KS- Was Luigi Ghirri an influence?

HG- I discovered him later. I like some of his work…I think lots of his …He’s more of an intellectual. He has a real concept, I think. And I’m kind of… I think more in terms of color and I don’t think that’s his main interest. We have a very different approach

KS- There’s a couple of images that kind of remind me of yours. The shot of Versailles from the distance…

HG- Those are the ones I prefer. 

KS- What did you think of the final documentary, Harry Gruyert Photographer? Did you have a chance to see it?

HG- Sure.

KS- What was your reaction? Were you pleased with it?

HG- I’m pleased with it. It’s not my Film. Well, it’s the Film of the director. It became very personal. You know, the thing is my father had about 25 hours of family films. The director knew that and he used a lot of that in the Film, comparing what my father did and what I did, and talking about my upbringing, so it became a very family kind of Film, which is fine, I think it’s a bit over done…it’s his Film.

KS- Are there any plans to release it in America? Are we going to get to see it over here?

HG- Who knows. It’s just the beginning. 

KS- You just returned form Gallery Fifty One and the opening of your show in Antwerp. How did you feel about the show? How did the installation look to you?

HG- We tried something I had never done before. We set two screens, one on top of the other, very close. On one we showed black and white photographs and on the other color photographs.

Sometimes the relationship between them worked, sometimes it did not. But it was an an interesting experience. There’s much more black and white stuff (included in the show) than I have ever showed. The color photographs are the ones published in the new edition of Roots.

KS- Did your father ever come to accept you being a Photographer? Did he come to appreciate your work at all?

HG- Oh yes. He became very proud. (laughs) Once I was vice-president of Magnum, that was it for him. I think it was more about my position at Magnum than about my work.. 

KS- No one’s ever mentioned that anywhere. They always talk about how adamant he was against your becoming a Photographer. They never mention that he did finally come to accept it. Unlike Saul Leiter, who’s father disinherited him. So, at least, that’s good to hear.

HG- No, no no. My father was very proud at the end. He was. Whenever he would tell others how great his son was, it was special for him.

Our conversation ended there. A few days later in an email, Harry added this-

“I am just a photographer. If people look at my work and think it’s art, I am happy about it. But it is not for me to decide.”

Count me in that group of “people.”

While the mystery in Harry Gruyaert’s work will enthrall me for years to come, I hope the mystery surrounding his lack of recognition here will be history in the near future. After all, I’d rather leave the mystery writing to Simenon.

---

BookMarks– Morocco is Harry Gruyaert’s most renowned book, winning the 1975 Kodak Prize. As he said, it’s been out of print since the last French edition, Maroc, published by Textuel in 2013. At the moment, two books are in print in the USA, Harry Gruyaert, with a red cover, a retrospective, published by Thames & Hudson in 2015, is likely to remain the most comprehensive overview of his work for the foreseeable future, particularly because, as he said, it has the Artist’s direct involvement.

It’s gorgeous, in my view, and the place to start exploring Harry Gruyaert’s work and achievement among books currently in print in the USA.

Harry Gruyaert: East/West, a two volume set in a slipcase, contains East, Photos taken in Moscow near the very end of the USSR in 1989, and West, Photos taken in the American West (including Los Angeles and Las Vegas) in 1981, was published in 2017 by Thames & Hudson. It’s a fascinating look at both places decades ago, and intentionally, or not, provides a powerful visual contrast between capitalism and communism.

Equally compelling is how much Mr. Gruyaert’s color palette changes between the two bodies of work.

Just released by Editions Xavier Barral this past May (2018) is the new edition of Harry Gruyaert – Roots, a book “about” the Artist’s relationship with his native country, Belgium. It adds over 20 additional Photos to the 2012 edition, which quickly went out of print. As the Artist said in the conversation, he finds today’s printing far superior to what he was able to achieve in the past, making this the edition to get.

Coming soon will be Edges (or Rivages in French), another new edition of an out of print beautiful collection. In visual poetry, Mr. Gruyaert explores the relationship of man to nature, the land to the sea, and the earth to the sky in 144 pages. Soon to be published by Thames & Hudson.

While I recommend starting with the red Retrospective, all of these books are excellent and recommended.

And, for lovers of detective novels, Harry’s images appear as covers on 65 Simenon novels published by, and available in the USA through, Penguin Books.

*- Soundtrack for this Post is “I Should Watch T.V.” by David Byrne & St. Vincent from “Love This Giant.” Lyrics, here. Video, here-

My thanks to Harry Gruyaert and Gallery Fifty One.

My prior Posts on Photography may be found here.

NighthawkNYC.com has been entirely self-funded and ad-free for over 6 years, during which over 250 full length pieces have been published. If you’ve found it worthwhile, you can donate to keep it going & ad-free below. Thank you!

Written & photographed by Kenn Sava for nighthawknyc.com unless otherwise credited.
To send comments, thoughts, feedback or propositions click here.
Click the white box on the upper right for the archives or to search them.
For “short takes” and additional pictures, follow @nighthawk_nyc on Instagram.

Subscribe to be notified of new Posts below. Your information will be used for no other purpose.

Name:

Email: