Francisco Goya: Modern Art & Photography Begin Here

Written & Photographed by Kenn Sava

The seemingly all-seeing eye. Francisco Goya, Los Caprichos, Plate 1, 1799, Etching, aquatint, drypoint, burin. The wall card reads- “In the first plate from the Caprichos, Goya presents himself as a sardonic observer of contemporary society.” Exactly what we’ll see in the rest of The Met’s Goya’s Graphic Imagination.

Francisco Goya’s Paintings are on the “must-see” lists of many museum goers, particularly the 200 or so portraits he did of royal, aristocratic or upper-class patrons over his 39 years as a court Painter1. Like this one-

Francisco Goya, Manuel Osorio Manrique de Zuñiga (1784–1792), 1787-8, Oil on canvas. One of the most charming Paintings in The Met for many. I can’t help but think it’s also more. An allegory about the end of  innocence? On the right, small birds in a protective cage. On the left, a magpie is eyed by cats. Any wonder this was the last Goya portrait commissioned by the child’s father, the Count of Altamira? Herein lies a hint of what lurks in Goya’s Graphic work. Its young subject died at age eight, 4 years after posing for it. A final touch- the magpie holds Goya’s card with his signature in his beak. Met Museum Photo of the work unframed.

But, to get the full picture of Goya’s Art, I believe his graphic work deserves every bit as much attention. Yet, chances to see his Drawings & Prints in depth are rare due to the fragility and light sensitivity of the originals. In 2015, a complete set of Goya’s timeless Print series Los Caprichos (the Caprichos) was shown at The National Arts Club in Gramercy Park, which I wrote about here. 2015 also saw the last large Goya Retrospective in the U.S., Goya: Order and Disorder, at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, which I actually made a day trip out of town to see and wrote about in the same piece. 

Goya after Velazquez, A False Bacchus Crowning Drunkards, 1778, Etching. Goya achieved, and demonstrated, his mastery of of the challenging medium of Etching copying the earlier Spanish master as in this remarkable Print done when Goya was about 32. And, he had the confidence to modify the composition of one of the greatest Painters of all time.

In the intervening 4 1/2 years, I’ve been preoccupied, if not obsessed, with exploring Photography & PhotoBooks, so when I finally got to see Goya’s Graphic Imagination at The Met in April with about 118 Drawings & Prints, I wondered if I might be able to spot Goya’s influence on Photographers and Photography, and on Modern Art in general for that matter.

“Both types of works on paper are closer to one another than they are to Goya’s painting. Paintings are a public expression. By contrast, an album of drawings is intimate and personal. These smaller-scale works served as a platform for Goya to think through his most private ideas.” Mark McDonald, Met Curator of Goya’s Graphic Imagination.

Goya’s eye, which seems to look askance at us in the Self-Portrait that opens Los Caprichos, up top, apparently never rested. He recorded much of what he saw in his Sketchbooks, which have largely survived. Over time, his beliefs ran in and out of sync with those of the powers that be, so he became adept at keeping his opinions to himself. It is in the privacy of these Sketchbooks that he gave full reign to what he felt about all he saw around him while keeping his position at court. He eventually rose to the exalted position of First Chamber Painter in 1799.

Title page to the first edition of Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War), 1863, 24 years after the invention of chemical Photography. Met Museum Photo. Due to the low lighting in the show I was unable to take satisfactory pictures of much of the show without a tripod, so in those cases, I am using The Met’s Photos. This page was not included in the show.

A number of his Drawings became the basis of his Prints, including  Los Caprichos and later, inspired by the Peninsular War, 1807-14 and the Madrid Famine, 1811-12, Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War). It was the 10 or so Prints from this series, equal parts “graphic” and revolutionary, on view in The Met’s show I looked forward to seeing most. Due to those ever-changing political winds, it wasn’t until 1863, thirty-five years after Goya’s death, that the world got to see his Fatal Consequences of Spain’s Bloody War with Bonaparte, and Other Emphatic Caprices, as he had originally titled a set of 85 Prints that he gave to an associate during his lifetime, when it was finally published under the title Los Desastres de la Guerra with 80 Prints2.

Plate 15 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): ‘And there is nothing to be done.’ (Y no hai remedio.) Met Museum Photo.

“Every figure in Los Desastres de la Guerra plays a specific role, defined by gesture, expression and costume. Nothing is superfluous.” Janis A. Tomlinson, Goya’s War: Los Desastres de la guerra, P.17

The series shows things never before seen in Art to that time, including graphic depictions of the horror of war, imprisonment and famine. About two hundred thirty years earlier, circa 1633,  Jacques Callot published his Print series Les Grandes Miseres de la guerre or The Miseries and Misfortunes of War. Of them, the Art Gallery of NSW, Australia, which owns a set, says– “Callot’s series is less an indictment of war than a moral tale about the unhappy consequences that befall the undisciplined soldier.” Callot’s Prints are in a long landscape format, and show what they depict at a distance. It is thought Goya owned a set of them, and they may have been an inspiration for him. In his series, Goya puts the action full frame presaging the words of Robert Capa, famed for his 20th century war & conflict Photographs, “If your photographs aren’t good enough, you’re not close enough.”

Plate 1 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): Sad foreboding of what is going to happen (Tristes presentimientos de lo que ha de acontecer), ca. 1815 (published 1863), Etching, burin, drypoint and burnisher. Met Museum Photo.

As powerful & profound as they are, there’s an element of them that is particularly puzzling. In more than one work, Goya’s caption gives the viewer the idea that what he’s showing are things he actually witnessed. DID Goya see the things he shows us?

DID he? Or, didn’t he actually see this happen? The title says he did. Plate 44 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): ‘I saw it.’ (Yo lo vi.). Met Museum Photo.

There is some debate around this. Wikipedia says repeatedly that he went around and saw the battles of the Peninsular War- without quoting a source for these statements I have seen no where else. While it seems it would have been hard for him to miss the daily effects of the Madrid Famine going on around him, the Artist going to battle scenes is harder for me to imagine. He was in his 60s and had suffered a serious illness that left him completely deaf. If he didn’t actually go to them, he could have been inspired by news accounts or from the accounts those closer to the action.

Preperatory Drawing for Plate 64 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): ‘Cartloads to the cemetery.’ (Carretadas al cementerio.) Prado, Madrid Photo.

Plate 64 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): ‘Cartloads to the cemetery.’ (Carretadas al cementerio.). Here an extremely rare opportunity to compare the Drawing, above, with the final Print. Met Museum Photo.

At this point, it’s unlikely we’ll ever know for certain how much of what we’re shown, if any of it, the Artist actually personally witnessed first hand. I’ve come to feel that thinking about this is a waste of time. Goya was an Artist- not a Photographer. He was working before the invention of chemical Photography and setting down his ideas by hand on paper, stone or canvas. With all due respect to the skill of Artists who Drew and Painted down through history, Drawing & Paintings done from life or memory are incapable of showing us the real world as it existed. Time is a key element in Drawing & Painting and in the time it takes to make one the world has changed. The people in it have moved. The light has changed. Things have happened and finished. In war, particularly, things happen way too fast to be captured accurately in a Drawing, let alone a Painting. They can give us a sense of what happened. What Goya is showing us is “something else” than the full reality of the moment- even if he did see it happen right in front of him. It’s his vision of things. If he tried to render it accurately to the scene in front of him, it’s still only an approximation. We’re seeing it through his eyes, and, as becomes apparent as you look at his Drawings & Prints, he does have a point of view.

The line for Goya extends further down the hall to the left than you can see here. April, 2021.

After seeing them in the show, it’s hard for me to think that these unprecedented images are not precursors of so-called war and conflict Photography. After the show I began to look to see if the Photographers, themselves, acknowledged this. In 2005, the renowned British Photographer Don McCullin, renowned for his coverage of the Vietnam War, among numerous other conflicts over his long & eventful career, told the BBC “When I took pictures in war I couldn’t help thinking of Goya.” Elsewhere he said, “…if what happened in front of my eyes was like a scene out of Goya. I wasn’t there to make icons. I had to bring back information that could possibly prevent other such miseries.” In those words I feel a simpatico with what Goya might have been trying to accomplish in Los Desastres de la Guerra .

Garroted Man, 1776-78, Etching. Done at about age 30, Goya’s second etching! A forerunner of Los Desastres, is also one of his most unforgettable images. According to Janis Tomlinson, Garroting “was considered one of the more humane forms of execution3.”

If a Drawing is incapable of showing us the complete “reality” of a scene, then it is what some might call today, “conceptual.” I was struck by some similarities of Goya’s Prints with so-called “conceptual” Photographers, who modify or create scenes from scratch that they then Photograph, like Duane Michals, Jeff Wall, Gregory Crewdson or Deana Lawson. Goya, too, may have been creating a scene on paper to make it express what he saw in his mind’s eye (keyword= may).

Plate 30 from The Disasters of War’ (Los Desastres de la Guerra). Proof, without caption. Without the titles makes them infinitely harder to decipher. According to the wall card, here, people fall to the ground after a building explodes.

Yet, no writing about these work exists in Goya’s hand besides the captions on the plates.

“It is important to emphasize that the inscriptions are not titles. They are captions that encourage a potential understanding. The captions do not explain the work for us. The meanings are often unclear, but this isn’t because Goya was being obtuse. He was thinking through drawings and prints for his personal purposes, and as such, there is no need for him to explain their significance to himself. His works on paper are so internal and layered that they would have sparked multiple associations, even for Goya.” Mark McDonald, Met Curator of Goya’s Graphic Imagination.

So, the captions add another layer of mystery to what we’re seeing! Duane Michals captions many of his Photographs right on the print itself. Robert Frank wrote directly on the image as his career went on, and so does Jim Goldberg, among others. Coincidences? Possibly.

Jim Goldberg, Ron E., Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA, 2014, Magnum Photos Print.

During the lockdown I read Believing is Seeing by Errol Morris. Among Photos taken from 1855 until very recently, Mr. Morris examines the work of the 1930s Farm Services Administration (F.S.A.) Photographers, including Walker Evans and Dorothea Lange, and the evidence that they may have modified the scenes of some of their most iconic F.S.A. images from the 1930s. Modifying a scene to make it closer to what the Artist or Photographer is seeing in his or her mind’s eye would make them kin to what we see in Goya’s Drawings & Prints. So, it doesn’t really matter all that much if Goya was actually present when the events he shows us were happening. “The FSA collection (in the Library of Congress) therefore offers scholars an unparalleled opportunity to place masterworks, such as Dorothea Lange’s Migrant Mother (1936), in the context of companion images taken on the same day. This visual evidence offers a much more reliable guide to the photographer’s original intent than the artist’s recollections recorded decades after the fact,” James Curtis, the author of Mind’s Eye, Mind’s Truth: FSA Photography Reconsidered, said here. (The other images Dorothea Lange took that day in the archive may be seen here.) In my view, it doesn’t matter if the F.S.A. Photographers, “posed” subjects or modified scenes as Mr. Morris’ and Mr. Curits’ books suggest. Like it doesn’t matter if Goya saw “I saw it.” Even if, say Dorothea Lange, did modify the scene somehow4, she did not change the woman’s situation, which is the real and lasting point of the Photograph. At the end of the F.S.A. chapter in his book, Errol Morris concludes, “It is the idea that the photograph captures that endures 5.” It seems to me, regardless of their genesis, it’s exactly the same with Goya’s Prints & Drawings.

“The demise of Goya’s fortunes at Court has been attributed to his objections to the repressive nature of the restoration regime. Yet he had long survived within politically charged surroundings, and it seems likely he would have kept his political opinions to himself.” Janis A. Tomlinson, Francisco Goya y Lucientes: 1746-1828P.221

Goya, Self-Portrait, c.1796, Brush and point of brush, carbon black ink, on laid paper, seen at the show’s entrance.

After escaping trouble for his views after the Peninsular War, it finally caught up to him leading to his leaving Spain and becoming an exile in France near the end of his life, where he died at 82 in 1828. His remains were later exhumed and reburied in Madrid in 1919. As far as being the possible “Father of Modern Art” goes, I think a great case can be made for his nomination. Goya’s extremely wide range of subjects, from the royals to the incarcerated preshadowed the work of many Artists & Photographers of the past century. And he never minced the Drawn line, or words, when calling out those he felt were wrong. When I say “Modern Art & Photography Begins Here,” I’m not so much referring to the stylistic innovations though they are there for all to see, and his later Paintings were certainly ahead of their time, I’m referring to the content, and the depicting of what was not seen in Art to that point. Goya’s Drawings & Prints, and his Paintings, like the 2nd & 3rd of May, 1802, break away from the chains of Pontifical or Royal commissions. They show us a world that is all too familiar to us today. A world that has seen no end of man’s inhumanity to his fellow man.

In considering Goya’s candidacy as the “first modern,” it feels that he lived too long ago to be considered. Yet, it’s interesting to realize that Goya was born in 1746 and died in 1828. J.M.W. Turner, who’s work is often seen as “modern” lived from 1775 to 1851. Charles Dickens, who’s novels captured the “modern world” as soon as anyone else’s, lived from 1812-1870. Edouard Manet, often mentioned as one of the first moderns lived from 1832, only 4 years after Goya’s passing, to 1883.  James McNeill Whistler 1834-1903 and Vincent van Gogh, 1853-1890, was born 25 years after Goya’s passing. Chemical Photography was introduced to the world in 1839- eleven years after Goya’s death. Goya seems perfectly situated chronologically.

The Custody of a Prisoner Does Not Call for Torture (La seguridad de un reo no exige tormento)
ca. 1815; published ca. 1859. While not a part of the posthumous La Guerre set, Goya included a number of Prints of prisoners in the set he gave a friend during his lifetime. I’m also including this as an example of the show’s low, protective, lighting. This may be seen with better lighting in a Met Museum Photo, here.

Between his Paintings, his Drawings and his Prints, taken as a whole, Goya shows the full range of people, from all layers of society, from those of privilege to prisoners without privilege. People living in the utmost splendor to people starving to death, extending on what Rembrandt had done. Some of it was timely, referring to people and events only known to specialists and historians now. Much of it is timeless since human nature hasn’t changed. Met Curator McDonald sums this up-

“Not much changes. The same idiocy, cruelty, and violence take new shapes, but Goya captured those universal anxieties. So much of what we are dealing with now can be identified in Goya’s art—there’s politics, conflict, bloodshed, and ignorance of the impact of our actions fueled by stupidity and bad choices—the same old problems.” Mark McDonald, Met Curator of Goya’s Graphic Imagination.

Plate 79 from Los Desastres de la Guerra (The Disasters of War): Truth has died. (Muriola verdad). 1814–15, published 1863. The penultimate Print in the series. Met Museum Photo.

It was interesting to me that Goya’s Graphic Imagination. was on view a few hundred feet away from another major show of the work of another Artist who was focused on people: the famous and the already forgotten- Alice Neel: People Come First. It’s also interesting that both shows were up during the pandemic: our own 21st century horror show. As big a test of the resilience of New York as I hope to ever see.

*-Soundtrack for this Post is “Outside of Space & Time” by David Byrne & St. Vincent from their classic album Love This Giant.

BookMarks-
The Met’s catalog for Goya’s Graphic Imagination is exceptional. It features large, often full page plates of all the works on view on very nice stock and includes very insightful text from the show’s curators. These texts include numerous insights that weren’t included on the wall cards in the show. And so, it’s one of the better books on the subject of Goya’s Drawings & Prints and a very good place to start for those who want to know more about the show or the subject. Highly recommended.

The best overview of the work of Goya known to me is Janis A. Tomlinson’s Francisco Goya y Lucientes : 1746-1828 , published by Phaidon, which is my go-to book for all things Goya. In fact, I’ve relied so heavily on it that I am now on my second copy. Beware of nebulous listings on Amazon! This is a large book- in both hard & soft cover editions. There is apparently a subsequent smaller softcover edition I have not seen. For studying the Art, the large edition, which has over 250 images, is the one you want. Out of print, but quite inexpensive in Very Good condition, the hardcover is the way to go especially since it is really no more expensive than the softcover and its binding should last longer. 

The best overview on Goya’s Drawings is called simply that- Goya Drawings. Published by the Prado Museum, Madrid, who hold the world’s greatest collection of Goya’s work. It was one of my NoteWorthy Art Books of 2020. It also contains a few Prints but most of its 250 reproductions are of his Drawings, sectioned from all through his career with insightful text in English in a nice, smaller size.

Janis Tomlinson has also written two books about the prints.Graphic Evolutions The Print Series of Francisco Goya (Columbia Studies on Art) and Goya’s War: Los Desastres de la Guerra. Both are excellent and recommended, the latter the most comprehensive book on Los Desastres available. They are a bit harder to find in very good condition, but worth seeking out. Goya’s War contains reproductions of the all 80 published Prints in Los Desastres. It was only published in softcover. 

Photography Related-

Errol Morris’Believing Is Seeing: Observations on the Mysteries of Photography is a fascinating deeper look at iconic Photographs starting with Roger Fenton’s Photographs of the Crimean War, 1855, to current events, causing the reader to question his or her beliefs about just what these images say and what they conceal. Extremely wide-ranging it’s an essential book for Photographers, Art lovers, Art writers and anyone who cares about images.

James Curtis’ Mind’s Eye, Mind’s Truth: Fsa Photography Reconsidered (American Civilization) is lesser known and a ground-breaking look at the work of the Farm Services Administration Photographers, including Walker Evans, Russell Lee and Dorothea Lange. It puts their most famous images into the context of the Photographer’s work that day and analyzes them in a bigger picture way revealing much that is not apparent in the one, famous, Photograph that was widely circulated.

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  1.  Janis Tomlinson, Francisco Goya y Lucientes: 1746-1828, P.1
  2. Also, as Janis Tomlinson points out- “For if, as the artist himself admitted, only twenty-seven sets of Los Caprichos had sold in much better times, how could he hope to find buyers in a capital devastated by war for these images of brutality, sadistic indifference, and tragic resignation?” Janis A. Tomlinson, Goya’s War: Los Desastres de la guerra, P.17
  3. Janis Tomlinson, Francisco Goya y Lucientes: 1746-1828, P.44
  4. James Curtis interview with Errol Morrisin Morris’, Believing is Seeing, P.138
  5. Errol Morris, Believing Is Seeing, p.185

A Conversation With Photographer Harry Gruyaert

Written by Kenn Sava. Photographs by Harry Gruyaert.

Harry Gruyaert is a mystery to me.

I wonder…HOW does he get such miraculous, beautifully atmospheric Photographs, over and over, again? It doesn’t matter what time of day,

Los Angeles, California, USA, 1981. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos. I came across a print of this work in June and realized that I hadn’t done a deep dive into Harry Gruyaert’s work. Well? It’s summer. Into the pool!  Three months later, I’m still immersed in the sheer joy of looking. Click any Photo for full size.

or night it is.

Launderette. Town of Antwerp, Flanders Region, Belgium 1988. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

What the weather is,

Ostende, Belgium, 1988. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

or even what’s going on.

Commemoration of the Battle of Waterloo, 1981, Village in the Province of Brabant, Belgium. Photo By Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

And, he’s been doing it for going on 50 years now.

His Photographs will make you stop and wonder- What’s going on here?

Rue Royale, 1981. Brussels, Belgium. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

Or, marvel at the almost magical combination of elements coming together in a split second of time,

Parade, 1988.Flanders region, Province of Brabant, Belgium. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

any time,

Galway, Ireland, 1988. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

any where.

National Communist party congress, Trivandrum, India, 1989. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

But, the biggest mystery of all, for me, is WHY is he still so relatively little known in the USA?

His name is heard nowhere nearly as often as his fellow contemporary Masters of color Photography- William Eggleston, Saul Leiter, Stephen Shore, and the rest. As I write this, there are only TWO books of his work in print here (see BookMarks at the end). Yet, I find, his work has a richness and subtlety, those gorgeous colors he’s legendary for, all in the service of a mystery, like an untitled still from a movie (sorry, Cindy), that brings me back to have another look, again and again. His work can stand right alongside that of his peers, and it will hold its own alongside any of them. Even beyond contemporary Photography, Harry Gruyaert’s work, also, speaks to the lover of Painting in me. His is that rarest of work that touches some of the same nerves that Edward Hopper is, perhaps, most renowned for- the insular loneliness that defines modern life.

Covered market, Bairritz, France, 2000. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

Born in Antwerp, Belgium in 1941, he joined Magnum Photos in 1981, as admittedly, and somewhat controversially, the first and only, non-PhotoJournalist in the legendary group. 37 years later, he’s still a member, and is it only a coincidence that the current roster may be the most diverse in its 71 year history? Still going strong, 2018 is turning out to be a big year for Harry. First, the Harry Gruyaert – Retrospective at FOMU Foto Museum in Antwerp, Belgium, from March 9th to June 9th, 2018, while the feature length documentary, Harry Gruyaert Photographer, premiered this summer. Meanwhile, this past Saturday, September 8th, saw the opening of his new show at Antwerp’s renowned Gallery Fifty One. The show is titled Roots, and features work Mr. Gruyaert created in his native Belgium, where his “roots” are.

I’m thrilled to say I had the privilege of speaking with Mr. Gruyaert in France after he just returned home from attending the opening of Roots, and in a far ranging interview, I was fortunate to ask him every question I could think of that I have yet to see asked of him thus far. What follows is not a blow by blow biography. It’s meant to fill in the gaps in what’s been written about Harry Gruyaert thus far. And so, it’s meant to intrigue, to inspire you to delve further into his long and rich career. I quickly discovered that he is not one to mince words. Hold on to your seats, and prepare to meet a living legend, who’s bursting with passion in his mid-70s. Ladies and gentlemen, my conversation with Harry Gruyaert on September 11th, 2018…

Before I could get a word out, he said…

Harry Gruyaert- I liked what you did on Saul Leiter, so…

Kenn Sava- Oh, you did? Thank you very much. It’s interesting…I notice there’s a couple of things you seem to have in common with Saul. Early on, his father, also, was adamantly against his becoming a Photographer, and eventually disinherited him. He was also really loved Pierre Bonnard, as I mentioned. I note that you are as well. Saul who was known for his color work, did most of his intimate work in black & white, as you have.

Pierre Bonnard, View of the Old Port, Saint-Tropez, 1911, oil on canvas, seen at The Met.

Pierre Bonnard is not somebody who comes up all that often, I’ve had him come up twice with such great Photographers recently. What is it about Bonnard that particularly speaks to you?

Pierre Bonnard, The House of Misia Sert, 1906, Oil on canvas.

HG- It’s extremely sensual, you know. It’s amazing. His cropping is really amazing. I really like so much the feeling he has towards his life, and his wife. It’s quite amazing.

Town of Jaisalmer, State of Rajasthan, India, 1976. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos. I couldn’t resist pairing this with Bonnard’s House above, without any input from Mr. Gruyaert. The more I look at them, the more I find coincidentally in common. Down to the animals just inside each door.

A funny thing about Saul Leiter. When I arrived in Paris in April, 1962, I went to Elle Magazine, which is a fashion magazine, and I showed my work to the art director, Peter Knapp, and he said, “Oh, you are the little Saul Leiter. “ I had no idea who Saul Leiter was. It took me 40 years to realize who was Saul Leiter, and strangely enough in the last Paris Photo, my work was hanging next to his in the booth of Gallery Fifty One, run by Roger Szmulewicz, and  believe it or not, who walks by as I was standing in the booth ? Peter Knapp ! It’s amazing. So I asked him, “Why did you tell me that all those years ago?” He said, “It’s because of the way you work with color, obviously.” I really find it exciting  when things like that happen. 

KS- So, his work had no influence on you. You weren’t aware of it.

HG- No. No. I found out much later when his first Steidl book came out and when I saw his show at the Foundation Cartier-Bresson in Paris, which was only a couple of years ago.

KS- This has been a big year for you with the FOMU Retrospective, the Documentary Harry Gruyaert Photographer, and now the Gallery Fifty One show, Roots, I wanted to congratulate you on all of that.

Harry Gruyaert, in the red slacks facing the camera, at the opening for his new show, Harry Gruyaert: Roots, September 8th. Photo by Gallery Fifty One..

HG- Thank you. 

KS- I came across your work in the Magnum Square Print sale and realized I hadn’t done a deep dive into your career. Part of the reason is there aren’t a lot of books of your work in print here. The Retrospective, with the red cover, and East/West being two. It seems that you’re slowly reissuing your books, right?

HG- Sure. You know I accumulated so much work. And the good thing about making books now, is that you have much more control than before. The quality of printing is much better and my new books look better than the ones I published before.

Moscow, Russia, USSR, 1989. From East in the 2 volume set, East/West. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

KS- East/West is a fascinating book in that regard. I’m interested in why you chose to group the two books together. I know you’ve said many times you’re not a journalist, but looking at this work now from so many years later, it almost has a journalistic feel to it- A commentary about the materialism in America and the fall of the USSR at the time you were taking the pictures. Was that any part of the intention in issuing them together now in a slipcase? 

Freemont Street. Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, 1982. From West in East/West. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

HG- Yes, that was part of the idea of publishing these two series of pictures together. Don’t forget, I’m a documentary Photographer, and in that sense I feel quite close to somebody like Cartier Bresson whose work is always about a particular place at a particular time. We have both travelled a lot and taken pictures in many different countries and share that same openness to different world and different cultures. Though I am a great admirer of american photographers, I sometimes feel that the work they have done in the states is more interesting than their work in other countries. I don’t know why that is. 

KS- You were involved with Henri Cartier-Bresson and I read the story of him asking you to color his prints. For everyone who wasn’t able to know him, what would you like them to know about him? Is there any one thing that particularly stands out?

Henri Cartier-Bresson, Hyeres, France, 1932

HG- (Laughs)…Oh boy. I was very lucky to have known him. He was very provocative. He was full of energy. Very provocative, and at the same time, he wanted to be a zen buddhist. (Laughs) Very interesting person. Complex. It’s such a lesson that he gave up Photography and went back to his old passion, Painting and Drawing, when he felt he had nothing more to say through photography. It was not on the level of what he did before, but it’s such a lesson. Then, he’d come and ask you, “What do you think of my Painting or Drawing?” He started all over again, questionning himself instead of relying on his reputation.

Shaded streets of the medina (old district), Near “Jemma el Fna” square, Marrakech, Morocco, 1986. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

KS- That’s quite a compliment to you that he’d ask you to Paint his prints. 

HG- It all started when he came to see my first show about Morocco at the Delpire Galerie in Paris. My C. prints were far from perfect and he started making comments. He took bits of paper or little objects and put them on my prints to explain to me what he meant.Amazing. Then he sent me his book about Andre Lhote, who was his teacher in Painting and  called me up two weeks later, and said «  I have a suggestion to make.I will send a couple of my prints and I will send you a big box of pastels and you can try and color them.” I said, “Henri, it’s nice to think about it, but I’m not a Painter. I can’t even make a drawing.”

He had a problem with color photography. He felt it was only used for commercial reasons and was not really interested. And I think he really didn’t like the fact that many Magnum Photographers moved to color because that’s what magazines were asking for when they were better doing black & white. But some became very good magazine photographers and were very successful. 

In 2017, 174 Harry Gruyaert Photographs were on view in 11 stations of the Paris Metro at the invitation of RATP, the Paris public transport operator. Seen here are two images from his beach series, “Rivages,” (shores, or “Edges” as it’s called here), images that speak of the insignificance of man in the scope of nature, the Artist has said, while at the same time, showing a sense of humor, particularly on the left. Seen here in a still from the Harry Gruyaert Photographer Documentary.

KS- Was there a single moment or an event that got you first interested in Photography?

HG-Different things…I wanted to travel. I went to an exhibition in ’58 at the World’s Fair in Brussels. I saw the different pavilions : America, Russia, Japan, India… I was looking at the globe which I had at home. And I thought, I want to go to all these places. And I was also interested in fashion. I loved  Fashion magazines which were much better at the time, like Harper’s Bazar and Vogue, and photographers like Avedon and Irving Penn. And there were all these beautiful girls…

KS- So, it came out of your desire to travel.

Still from Harry Gruyaert Photographer.

HG- To travel, to discover things…I was always interested in Paintings. I always went to Museums. 

I never even thought about doing anything else. I was Director of Photography for a couple of television Film. I had a big admiration for the directors of photography who worked with  Italians film directors like Antonioni, I through they were really fantastic. I could have made a profession out of that, but I wanted to do my own stuff, my own Films and it meant working with a large crew of people and you needed a lot of money. The good thing about photography is that you can work on your own. If the digital small cameras of the quality we have now had existed at the time, things might have been different.

KS- When I look at your work I see elements of both- they seem like stills from a movie but then when it comes to printing, it’s some of the same techniques that come to bear that Painters would use, so you’ve almost married the two. Do you see it that way at all?

HG- Yeah, sure. The funny thing is that the directors I know in Paris, I’m friendly with some of them, have told me they’ve been inspired by some of my photographs…So it’s wonderful that it works both ways. 

Edward Hopper, New York Movie, 1939, Oil on canvas.

KS- I’ve read a couple of your interviews over time talking about Edward Hopper. I think in one interview you said you didn’t really look at his work early on, but you can kind of see what people say when they talk about the similarities in the loneliness and isolation in your work. Since it didn’t come from Hopper, that sense that is in some of your work, where do you think that came from? Those isolated figures, that sense of loneliness and isolation that occurs in your work? 

Trans-Europe-Express, 1981. Belgium. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

HG- I don’t really know. It’s not the person that interests me most. It’s the person in its environment. To me, all the elements are important. I don’t have any particular intention. It’s just what I see.

Bay of the Somme River in the town of Fort Mahon, Picardie, France, 1991. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

I think humans have such a great idea about ourselves but nature is so much more powerful.

The Flemish House, by George Simenon. Cover Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

Talking about loneliness in the city…A funny thing that came up. Do you know (Georges) Simenon, the Belgian Writer of detective stories ? Inspector Maigret is the name of the detective. They translated them into english and they had trouble finding covers for them. Peter Galassi said to them, “Look at Harry’s work. I think you can find something there.” So, the guy from the publishing company sent me some lay-outs and I didn’t think it could work because the cover is vertical and 90% of my work is horizontal. But, the way he cropped it, it was really quite interesting and I asked him to print the full frame image on the back cover. 

The full frame source Photo for the cover. Bar, Antwerp, Belgium. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

Then, Penguin Books in London picked it up. Believe it or not, we’ve done 65 covers.

KS- You’ve done 65 covers for them?

HG- Yes. Just from my archive. My archives are not only Magnum, only a small percentage is Magnum. So, she comes to Paris and looks through mainly my old work. When I did my show at FOMU at Antwerp, there was a big wall with all the covers of the books and small pictures of the full frame.

The strange thing is Simenon is Belgian. He’s from Liege. I’m from Antwerp. I met his son and he showed me some Photographs that Simenon did himself, and you find this kind of thing of a small figure in an urban landscape. With a certain lonelieness. Which you find often in my work. It’s really quite funny.

KS- You’ve spoken about a number of the places you’ve worked- Moscow, Belgium, California & the American West. How do you feel about New York?

It’s a small world. New York City. USA, 1996. The 23rd Street Subway station, across from the Met Life Building. It’s immediately recognizable to me because it’s in my neighborhood. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

HG- Extremely exciting. I’ve done lots of work in New York. The first time I came to New York was in ’68. I was friends with people like Gordon Matta-Clark. All those Artists were important to me, in terms of the energy, in terms of what they were doing. 

National Road 1,near Mechelen, Antwerp Province, Belgium, 1988

Pop Art taught me to look at a certain banality with interest, a visual interest and a certain sense of humor.That changed the nature of the work I was doing in Belgium at the time.  In the beginning it was only in black & white. For two years, I didn’t see any color there. But Pop Art taught me to look at things in a different way and then I started to work in color.

So for two years there I only shot black & white.

Near Bruges, Belgium, 1975. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

KS- I don’t really consider Robert Rauschenberg a Pop Artist but he was obviously very important at that time, and since. Has he had any influence on you at all?

Robert Rauschenberg, Black Market, 1961, seen at MoMA’s Robert Rauschenberg: Among Friends show, 2017.

HG- Oh, I love his work. I mean the personality… the openness, trying other things. There’s more sensuality in Rauschenberg. It’s more fun as well. 

KS- In looking at someone like Robert Rauschenberg, and there’s others, too, who were Painters, but also were Photographers, it seems to me that their Photography doesn’t get any attention at all. Have you seen Rauschenberg’s Photography, and if so, what do you think of it?

Robert Rauschenberg, Anchor, from Studies for Chinese Summerhall, China, 1983. Photo by Graphicstudio, USF.

HG- Oh, sure. It’s interesting. Sometimes it takes time to discover things. So many Photographers are being discovered…look at Saul Leiter.

Excerpts from T.V. Shots, Photos taken between 1969 and the early 1970s. From the publisher- “Gruyaert’s break from television wasn’t all peaceful, though: his first serious body of work contained photographs of distorted TV images. By following events such as the 1972 Munich Olympics from home, he created a distressed parody of the current-affairs photo-story. The work caused controversy, both for its disrespectful assault on the culture of television and for its radical challenge (both formally and in terms of content) to the conventions of press photography. Gruyaert views it as the closest thing to journalistic photography he has ever made.” Photos by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos, as seen in the 2007 Steidl book of the same name.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, someone said. This is NOT by Harry Gruyaert. NYC Subway ad for Maniac, September, 2018

KS- Speaking of that…another Photographer who is also a Painter, is William Eggleston. You were able to see the legendary 1976 show at MoMA, Photographs by William Eggleston, and you spoke about being impressed with his dye-transfer prints. I’m wondering- What did you think of his work when you first saw it?

HG- It was amazing to see that, especially the quality of the printing. The first book is one of his best and one of my favorites. 

KS- So you think William Eggleston’s Guide would be among his best work?

HG- Sure. Yes. Definitely. There are other good things too. But the problem now is that publishers want to publish too many books. Some are good, some are not so good. Banality can be interesting, but sometimes, it’s just banal!

KS- In the Gallery Fifty One show you have 41 works in black & white and 19 works in color, though they are large. I notice there seems to be more surrealism in the black & white works, where it’s more subtle in the color work. Does that seem to be the case for you?

Belgium, Hofstade, Carnival (Superimposition), 1975, is included in the Gallery Fifty One show. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum

HG- Black and white and color are two different approaches. I took pictures of my daughters in black & white because I felt I got closer to them. Shooting in black and white I feel less preoccupied by the way people dress, the background or things that could distract me. I concentrate on the human quality of the person. Color is more complex. With color, the color really has to be the main thing…the most important thing…

A normally very busy street deserted by citizens for the first meal of the day. During the Ramadan. Cairo. Egypt, 1987. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

KS- It’s said that Roots was, at one point, basically a “farewell” to Beligum, after your difficulties with your father…

HG- That was not so much the problem as the lack of a cultural environment.

“Midi” train station district, Brussels, Belgium, 1981, is included in the Gallery Fifty One show. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

KS- But, it seems that you’ve made peace with Belgium. Have you done work in Belgium since Roots? 

HG- I do all the time. At the show I gave Roger (Gallery Fifty One’s Director) about 15 prints I did very recently, to show whoever’s interested that things change. Nothing stays the same. The colors are different now. The mentality’s different. Belgium is more like the rest of Europe, I guess…the same clothing…the same advertisements. It’s actually much more colorful, but in a more capitalistic driven way. It’s more fashionable somehow, and It’s more alike. Before, in Holland and Belgium, which are very near to each other, things were very different in the color aspect and all that. And now, things have become much more the same, like in the States.

KS- So you were saying that some of the American Photographers influenced you more than the Europeans. Who were those American Photographers who influenced you?

HG- (Lee) Friedlander, definitely. (Irving) Penn, (Richard) Avedon. Helen Levitt is wonderful, sure, Bruce Davidson and others…

Stephen Shore, Merced River, Yosemite Park, CA, 1974, Seen at the Stephen Shore Retrospective at MoMA, 2018

When I look at Stephen Shore’s work, I have the feeling that I am traveling with him. It’s really important in Photography to get to the person and have the feeling of being with him. That’s really important. Stephen Shore, but other Photographers as well. It’s physical. It’s the experience they have that appeals to me. It’s a physical thing. That’s why I don’t care much for conceptual work. It comes from the brain. For me, it has to come more from the stomach. It’s physical. It’s experience, which someone has at a given time, and through the experience I get contact with the person who did it.

A visitor spends quality time with Rembrandt(s). At The Met, February, 2015.

To me, Art is…When I look at Rembrandt, I’m with Rembrandt. When I look at Bonnard, I’m with Bonnard. When I look at conceptual work, I’m with the brain of somebody. If they have to write a lot of stuff before we’re able to understand what it’s all about, I’m not interested in the exhibition. I have to first look at the work and it should mean something. It has to appeal to me visually. 

KS- Have there been any Directors or Painters that have spoken to you more recently?  Anyone that’s come along since Antonioni, Magritte? Anything that’s more contemporary? Anything that you’ve really been impressed with?

HG- Recently? I’m a movie fan. I go to movies all the time. In the past I went to the cinema every day. I learned more from movies than anywhere else…movies and paintings…

About Antonioni. What’s really interesting…In 2009, 10 Magnum Photographers had a show at the Cinematheque Francaise in Paris, exploring  the relationship between still Photography and Film. My part was to show how much I was inspired by Film, and mainly, by Antonioni. So, I did a projection, which lasts about 25 minutes, with extracts of his movies – l’Avventura, The Eclipse and the Red Desert –  and some of my Photographs next to them.

Province de Brabant, Belgium, 1981. One of my personal favorite Harry Gruyaert Photos reminds me of the scene in Antonioni’s La Notte when Jeanne Moreau sits in the car in the rain. Photo by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

There are three Antonioni Films I was limited to1. So, I was able to use certain things. …. But, when they saw the thing produced, the review were very happy about it.

KS- I would love to see that. You have a new book, Rivages about to come out, (to be released in the USA as Edges later this year). I’ve read that you’ve been enjoying using today’s technology to make better prints. Are you also involved with the selecting of the images for the books and the way they are sequenced, or does somebody else do that?

HG- Completely. It’s team work. I’m the first person, obviously. I’ve been working with the same people the past 4 or 5 books. It’s like teamwork. 

The English edition of Rivages (Edges) is coming out at the end of September. The French edition is earlier. I’m very happy with them. The printing and everything. 

KS- So, you’re selecting the images for the books. 

HG- Sure. There’s some discussions, obviously…yeah, teamwork.

KS- Are you working on another version of Morocco?

HG- No plans for the moment, but everything is sold out. 

I want to do a book about street photography in the different cities I’ve been to. You know like New York, Brussels, or whatever And also a book on India and Egypt, a book about my industrial work, about airport, about my daughters… So many things… I also want to redo It’s not about cars, which was first published with  Roger Smulewicz of Gallery 512, but in a larger and more complete version. 

KS- Was Luigi Ghirri an influence?

HG- I discovered him later. I like some of his work…I think lots of his …He’s more of an intellectual. He has a real concept, I think. And I’m kind of… I think more in terms of color and I don’t think that’s his main interest. We have a very different approach

KS- There’s a couple of images that kind of remind me of yours. The shot of Versailles from the distance…

HG- Those are the ones I prefer. 

Still from the Harry Gruyaert Photographer Documentary showing the Artist on the corner of West 42nd Street and 7th Avenue.

KS- What did you think of the final documentary, Harry Gruyert Photographer? Did you have a chance to see it?

HG- Sure.

KS- What was your reaction? Were you pleased with it?

HG- I’m pleased with it. It’s not my Film. Well, it’s the Film of the director. It became very personal. You know, the thing is my father had about 25 hours of family films. The director knew that and he used a lot of that in the Film, comparing what my father did and what I did, and talking about my upbringing, so it became a very family kind of Film, which is fine, I think it’s a bit over done…it’s his Film.

Harry Gruyaert in action in Times Square, NYC. He has spoken about how taking Photos is like a “dance” for him, which is obvious, here, in this shot from the Harry Gruyaert Photographer Documentary website. While other Photographers bring full Hollywood movie making gear to bear in making their Photos look “cinematic.” Mr. Gruyaert does it the old fashioned way, as you can see.

KS- Are there any plans to release it in America? Are we going to get to see it over here?

HG- Who knows. It’s just the beginning. 

Gallery Fifty One, Antwerp, Belgium.

KS- You just returned form Gallery Fifty One and the opening of your show in Antwerp. How did you feel about the show? How did the installation look to you?

HG- We tried something I had never done before. We set two screens, one on top of the other, very close. On one we showed black and white photographs and on the other color photographs.

Installation view of Roots at Gallery Fifty One showing dual video monitors. Photo by Gallery Fifty One.

Sometimes the relationship between them worked, sometimes it did not. But it was an an interesting experience. There’s much more black and white stuff (included in the show) than I have ever showed. The color photographs are the ones published in the new edition of Roots.

The Gruyaert family at dinner in a peaceful moment. Harry’s father, left, worked for the AGFA Film Company. His feelings about his son becoming a Photographer have been written about elsewhere. Still from Harry Gruyaert Photographer.

KS- Did your father ever come to accept you being a Photographer? Did he come to appreciate your work at all?

HG- Oh yes. He became very proud. (laughs) Once I was vice-president of Magnum, that was it for him. I think it was more about my position at Magnum than about my work.. 

KS- No one’s ever mentioned that anywhere. They always talk about how adamant he was against your becoming a Photographer. They never mention that he did finally come to accept it. Unlike Saul Leiter, who’s father disinherited him. So, at least, that’s good to hear.

HG- No, no no. My father was very proud at the end. He was. Whenever he would tell others how great his son was, it was special for him.

Our conversation ended there. A few days later in an email, Harry added this-

“I am just a photographer. If people look at my work and think it’s art, I am happy about it. But it is not for me to decide.”

Count me in that group of “people.”

While the mystery in Harry Gruyaert’s work will enthrall me for years to come, I hope the mystery surrounding his lack of recognition here will be history in the near future. After all, I’d rather leave the mystery writing to Simenon.


BookMarksMorocco is Harry Gruyaert’s most renowned book, winning the 1975 Kodak Prize. As he said, it’s been out of print since the last French edition, Maroc, published by Textuel in 2013. At the moment, two books are in print in the USA, Harry Gruyaert, with a red cover, a retrospective, published by Thames & Hudson in 2015, is likely to remain the most comprehensive overview of his work for the foreseeable future, particularly because, as he said, it has the Artist’s direct involvement.

It’s gorgeous, in my view, and the place to start exploring Harry Gruyaert’s work and achievement among books currently in print in the USA.

Harry Gruyaert: East/West, a two volume set in a slipcase, contains East, Photos taken in Moscow near the very end of the USSR in 1989, and West, Photos taken in the American West (including Los Angeles and Las Vegas) in 1981, was published in 2017 by Thames & Hudson. It’s a fascinating look at both places decades ago, and intentionally, or not, provides a powerful visual contrast between capitalism and communism.

East/West

Equally compelling is how much Mr. Gruyaert’s color palette changes between the two bodies of work.

Just released by Editions Xavier Barral this past May (2018) is the new edition of Harry Gruyaert – Roots, a book “about” the Artist’s relationship with his native country, Belgium. It adds over 20 additional Photos to the 2012 edition, which quickly went out of print. As the Artist said in the conversation, he finds today’s printing far superior to what he was able to achieve in the past, making this the edition to get.

Coming soon will be Edges (or Rivages in French), another new edition of an out of print beautiful collection. In visual poetry, Mr. Gruyaert explores the relationship of man to nature, the land to the sea, and the earth to the sky in 144 pages. Soon to be published by Thames & Hudson.

While I recommend starting with the red Retrospective, all of these books are excellent and recommended.

Cover image cropped from an original by Harry Gruyaert/Magnum Photos.

And, for lovers of detective novels, Harry’s images appear as covers on 65 Simenon novels published by, and available in the USA through, Penguin Books.

*- Soundtrack for this Post is “I Should Watch T.V.” by David Byrne & St. Vincent from “Love This Giant.” Lyrics, here. Video, here-

My thanks to Harry Gruyaert and Gallery Fifty One.

My prior Posts on Photography may be found here.

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  1. In 2009 the Cinematheque Francaise presented Images to Come, an exhibition exploring Magnum photographer’s take on the relationship between cinema and photograhy. The works are displayed alongside still from L’Avventura, The Eclipse and the Red Desert.
  2. Harry Gruyaert: It’s Not About Cars, published by Gallery Fifty One in 2017.